Show 50: HULK SMASH
By Dollar Bin • Aug 16th, 2007 • Category: Shows
The Marvel world is at war with the Hulk, but how do we feel about him and this crossover? Kris, Adam and Brian ventured up to Richard’s Comics and Collectables in Greenville, South Carolina to discuss all things Hulk with store regular John, store employee John (the occasional word from store employee Brendon) and the infamous J Chris Campbell for this edition of the Dollar Bin.
Minicast 50: Captain America [1:21m]: Download
Minicast 50: Ghostbusters [1:18m]: Download
Minicast 50: Hollywood Actors' Research [5:01m]: Download
Minicast 50: Hulk vs. X-men [1:14m]: Download
Minicast 50: World War Hulk End (Our Theory) [1:53m]: Download
Minicast 50: Crossovers [10:14m]: Download
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I listen to the Dollar Bin every week, and I usually enjoy it immensely, but you guys just lost a ton a credibility with me by NOT knowing who Howard Chaykin is.
Although his most recent work may not be quite as strong as his past work, Chaykin is a writer/artist who is legend in the industry for his impeccable sense of design, strong storytelling, and groundbreaking use of typography in his work. Chaykin illustrated the very first comic adaptation of Star Wars, but he is most well known for his highly influential creator-owned work American Flagg! from First Comics. AF! featured the same sort of mature themes and wild, fully-realized worlds that guys like Matt Fraction and Joe Casey only dream about creating. At First Comics, Chaykin also wrote and two graphic novels that you should really track down, entitled Time Squared that were a volatile mix of fast talkin’, hard-drinkin’ dames, Art Deco 30s style, be-bop, demon cops, zombie robots, and transforming, oversexed killer police cars. Time Squared included one of the coolest lines in all of comics history: “There I was, two weeks out of seminary with a .45 in one hand and an underage blonde in the other.” And that was a THROW-AWAY line from a background character!!
Chaykin later created the graphic novel, Black Kiss, which was originally published through Vortex I believe. Black Kiss, which blended eroticism and horror in a cynical, vicious brew that would make Mark Millar blush. Chaykin also drew series such as The Shadow, Blackhawks, Power & Glory, and American Century.
Chaykin only recently returned to comics after a stint in Hollywood writing for shows like The Flash, Viper, and Mutant X.
And everything above is just what I can recall off the top of my head, no Wikipedia trip needed. Dudes, you really owe it to yourselves to hunt down some American Flagg! Chaykin was rockin’ world-weary cynicism and mashin’ up genres in comics when guys like Warren Ellis and Grant Morrison were still trying to steal a kiss or sneak a few puffs behind the schoolhouse!
Ha! I knew he’d been around awhile, and had an extensive comic background, but I’ve never been real familiar with his stuff. Well, except for the Elseworlds I’ve got in my collection…but his other stuff sounds interesting enough to go pick up.
Oh, yeah - I think my favorite Hulk is the comics I have from the late 70’s/early 80’s. The “Hulk smash!” stuff. Back then he was my favorite superhero. But I don’t understand why they can’t write that in an interesting way to keep it going. I mean, Spider-Man is interesting because of the conflict of being Peter Parker, and struggling with being Spider-Man at the same time. You’d think they could write the internal struggle of Banner and Hulk and keep it interesting.
And I was real disappointed in the movie. I thought the comic book stuff was creative, but the movie just didn’t do anything for me. It just never grabbed me. I thought it was kind of tedious.
Sorry about that Jay. Tre is really our credibility guy and he couldn’t make it to the show in Greenville. I myself take no responsibility for credibility. I’m more of a here in the now guy. I’m am steadily learning though, thanks to Tre and our commentors like you who throw stuff at me like that that. I talked to Flaco about him last weekend as well and he gave with the whole run down about how Chaykin worked his ass off on all these great small name projects back in the day and worked his way up and should be respected and revered for that, but I’ll say the same thing I told him, “That may be so, but the people in that last Punisher book sucked ass. The backgrounds where great. There is a rug in one of the scenes and it looks amazing. If I can get my hands on some of that older stuff then I’ll check it out, but I will give no man props for a book with shitty people in it just because of stuff he’s done in the past.”
marvel boy’s name was NOH-VARR u n00bz!! lol….
I mean I’ll admit to having little background and 0 memory (that’s why we record or discussions), but you can’t expect everyone to remember the name of a rather lame secondary ass character like Marvel Boy. As far as I know John has lived comics for the last 3/4 of his life so I definitely don’t think he can be referred to him as a noob. Did you hear the stuff he was pulling out of no where. I’m just saying. I mean how many story lines has Marvel Boy been in? I’ll admit I liked the Civil War: Young Avengers/ Runaways, but it wasn’t for NOH-VARR and that sure as hell didn’t help me remember his name.
Crimy. We loose Tre for a day and suddenly we get hassled left and right for not knowing everything about comics. I miss Tre, but I kinda like the criticism. I just hope everyone keeps listening anyway. Tre will be back shortly next week (and by next week I mean the couples days after this post. Except thats when we record so it will be the couple day after this post plus the next week. so yeah.).
I’ve never claimed to be comic book encyclopedia and I am completely fine with not only having no clue who Chaykin is but with not knowing a lot of other things as well.
Jay if you feel like you can add something to the dollar bin panel I am sure they can phone conference you in like they did for Adam a few weeks back when he was on holidays. Then you can point out their failings in real time. Same applies to you KomikGeek4000!!
Wow.
was that hostile?
Andrew,
If you’re serious about the invite, I would be glad to contribute.
I tend to follow artists as opposed to characters, storylines, or writers, and I get frustrated by the short shrift that artists seem to get in the digital and ink comic book press. Think about it, whenever a new book or series is rolled out, comic news sites will dedicate numerous column inches of virtual ink to interviews with the writer, the writer’s vision, etc., who will throw in some praise for the artist, that may be heartfelt, but comes across as obligatory and perfunctory (i.e. How many times have we read, “I was blown away by his stuff!” by a comic writer. Why, exactly? How did it blow you away, sir? What made it good?) Sometimes you’ll read interviews accompanied by sketches that don’t even credit the artist. Case in point, when Newsarama unveiled the sketches for The Great Ten from the 52 series, J.G. Jones wasn’t mentioned or credited as the artist.
Back to the point of my original post, although Chaykin may not be producing his best work now, he was an incredible innovator during the 1980s, and was one of the creators that was regarded in the same category of innovation as other writer/artists of the time like Matt Wagner, Mike Grell, Los Bros. Hernandez, Walt Simonson and Frank Miller.
I may have been too strident in my comments, but when no one in attendance had a clue who Howard Chaykin was, to me it was the equivalent of a bunch of film critics completing a screening of the 1996 version of The Island of Dr. Moreau, and wondering who the fat, mumbling actor with the ice bucket on his head was. No, it wasn’t Marlon Brando’s finest hour, and you don’t have to know everything the man did, but I think it is extremely helpful to have a passing knowledge of his body of work and his place in the history of modern cinema. The same applies to Howard Chaykin. without him, for better or worse, there might not be books like Casanova, The Intimates, 100 Bullets, or Wanted, and you wouldn’t have artists like Lee Bermejo, Dean Haspiel, Dan Brereton or J.H. Williams, who cite Chaykin as influences in their work, just as Milton Caniff and Alex Toth inspired Chaykin.
Hey Jay,
Again, thanks for commenting. As you may have (or soon will hear) we have started releasing smaller show segments on Mondays now too and Andrew has a point. Maybe I will make one of those segments a chat with a listener. I could be interesting. I know the first thing Kris checks before he’ll even buy a book is the art. I tell you art can make or break a book. Its definitely a first impression. Lately I’ve been going through a lot more Indy books and deciding if I’ll pick it up simply based on the art. Sometimes it works out and sometimes not so much. Maybe we can have a discussion on the Artist’s Impact on a Book. For instance not even Bianchi could save Wolverine.
BTB: Chris Campbell has this link to a bunch of Hulk sketches I thought I’d share:
http://hometown.aol.com/collector838/myhomepage/
I think its cool that a prod post got this sort of response. Maybe somewhere down the line there could be an area on the Dollar Bin for listener to submit their own reviews of comics. Which gives us another area to participate in the site with and build a nice little community with a kick ass knowledge base.
Hey Adam - can any of us invite listeners to ?
Hey, Jim, I bet The Dollar Bin would let you be one of their regulars - they can just dial you in on the phone!
Thanks, Jim, I’ll take that invite!
Anytime you guys want me to join in, let me know!
(just kidding, Andrew - I know what you were saying)
Jim,
I heard Adam, Brian and Kris are going to be pitching in to fly you down and record live with them coz your special.
Cheers,
Andrew.
Thanks for letting me know, Andrew!! That’s the best news I’ve heard all day!
Is our sarcasm contagious, or is that just who we attract? I hope to god we aren’t spreading this sarcasm disease. I don’t want to be held responsible for it. I blame Brian. No, wait Tre, yeah… Tre.
Yeah…Tre’s good.
You guys got pwn’d! You guys do a show about comics. You need to know your stuff! You might as well call it, “Tre’s Dollar Bin with some posers”. How about doing some research first, that will give you maybe a little bit of credit.
Wow. First off. I have no idea what pwn’d is. I’m assuming it is a comic sound effect. But then again what do I know. God forbid I be a guy who reads comics as a kid and started reading them again a couple years ago and enjoy them. God forbid I enjoy talking and learning about comics as I go. God forbid I don’t think to myself I don’t really like the art in this book let me go look up everything about this artist (who’s art I don’t like) before I mention that I don’t like it. I’m sorry. Shit. Call me out on my credit. I’ll admit this this shit. But at least tell me something about the damn guy while you do it like Jay did. I don’t know everything about comics. Hell, one of the main reasons I got into this is to absorb as much a possible. I’ve learned more about comics doing this than I ever would without it and damn it I LOVE it.
PS: Thanks for listening
Pierre,
I don’t know if you noticed but the Dollar Bin is yOUR ground level source for comic book OPINIONS and reviews. If this show pissed you off then you should listen to our other shows. They’re all about the same. We read comics and then we give OUR opinions and reviews and then we typically have a little discussion about a comic related topic. We have fun doing these shows.
I’m in the same boat as Adam with coming back into comics. I had what I call my “Dark Years” when I quit reading. Then I discovered a nice little comic shop in Columbia and got turned back on to comics. I don’t know as much as Tre and Brian but I’m learning.
Thanks for listening and it’s good to know that we can get people to comment on our site even if its to tell us we are “pwn’d.” I for one do know what “pwn’d” means and I totally disagree with you.
Have a good day and watch out for our boy downunder, Andrew. I’m sure he’ll comment soon.
Kris
Ok, since Kris knew what it meant I had to go look it up and I discovered its one of those geek ass chat phrases like “noobz.” Well I feel better about that. How ’bout you?
I feel great. I love feedback—positive or negative.
WTF? Pwn’d? Lolz. Oh and ROTFLMFAO.
ttyl!
P.S. Love you boyz.
xo
Kris,
For once I actually dont have anything working 10 days has made my mind go from a solid to a liquid and yes I am at work atm.
Cheers,
Andrew
So when you use the term “ground level”, you are referring to how you are lacking knowledge? Do you think I’m blind? I noticed the sub text that said “ground level source”. How am I able to type this message? I was told on a message board that there are some knuckleheads dissing the great Chaykin. I have to represent! Oh, Owen who is the current Captian Boomerang, doesn’t just throw Boomerangs. He has short bursts of Speed. The idea behind The return of Thor does not belong to Mark Millar, it actually goes to Neil Gaiman.
Represent,
WOW Pierre you must be one hard mutha comin on here and slinging insults at people on the internet. One day I want to grow up an be just like you.
Also if you give us some examples of why you think Chaykin is so fucking good instead of acting like your in 8th grade.
Now if you’ll excuse me I have a deadline to meet.
Cheers,
Andrew
Pierre, I’m going to respond from “I was told…” because I don’t understand what anything means before that. I am curious what message board this appeared on (unless you mean this comment section). I like to check it out. That’s awesome. I’m also curious if you listened to any of the other casts. The term “Ground Level” refers to the fact that we are just some guys off the street who read comics and like to discuss them. Neil Gaiman rocks.
I don’t consider myself to be a Chaykin fan by any stretch of the imagination, but I can admire the man’s writing.
His art, however, for me leaves a lot to be desired. Like a whole lot…
It’s a stylistic thing to be sure and I’m not saying I could do better then him or hell, even better then Rob Liefield for that matter.
But as a reader and buyer of comics, all I know is what I like or what I don’t like…and I don’t like Howard Chaykin’s art.
But hey, I also don’t like Frank Miller’s art, Jim Lee’s art, or Todd Mcfarlane’s art.
But I have enjoyed books they’ve done.
Also, for Pierre…I don’t know how to break this to you, but just because a couple of the Dollar Bin guys aren’t overly familiar with Howard Chaykin’s work doesn’t mean they’re not entitled to a “Holy shit, I really don’t like this” opinion.
If you take into account the fact that Chaykin hasn’t exactly been dominating mainstream comics recently and then tack him onto a mainstream book then there’s a good chance that a significant portion of the audience isn’t going to know who the fuck he is.
That doesn’t diminish his contributions in the least, but wouldn’t you find it a shock to be a regular reader of Astonishing X-Men and suddenly Walt Simonson or Nick Cardy were on a 6 issue story arc?
They’re both huge figures in the history of comics, but would you hold it against someone if they weren’t familiar with their work because neither of them have been terribly active recently?
I sure wouldn’t.
Adam and the rest of the crew do a damn fine job and there’s no net or script to be seen.
They share their honest, gut opinions on what they’ve read…and frankly I think it’s refreshing to hear someone without a preconceived notion of an artist or writer critique their work.
There’s no knowledge of past glories to color a opinion…if Chaykin draws an issue of Punisher and Adam thinks it sucks, then where’s the crime in saying so?
What Chaykin did 15 years ago is irrelevant to the fact that his most recent issue of Punisher, in Adam’s eyes, sucks giant hairy monkey balls.
Now I’m sure I’ll be characterized as some poor dumb bastard who just doesn’t understand the greatness that is Howard Chaykin…and I’m cool with that. In fact, tonight I guarantee you I’ll sleep like a baby despite that characterization.
The truth is, I do understand how great Chaykin is…but my opinion of his greatness extends merely to his writing and not into the realm of his artwork.
I agree with Adam, Howard Chaykin’s art sucks…and not in that nice way either.
I have recently ordered the Twilight series and American Flagg issue one. I look forward to both of them based on Jay’s recommendation. Chaykin wrote Twilight, but doesn’t do the art. (So it should be awesome right? Just kidding.) I’ve been having a lot of discussions with people about Chaykin recently and many who know of Chaykin have basically said the same as above. Although he has been around awhile and very influential he’s not a household name, so they let me off the hook. Also, let me point out that there are folks out there who have been reading comics for years and years, but pay no mind to artists or writers. They just read the books and follow the characters. Anyway, Chaykin will be a Baltimore Comic-Con and I look forward to getting and interview with him.
Sheesh, I didn’t know I’d start such a conflagration!
Good luck with the Baltimore Comic-Con interview, and I’m glad you’re doing your homework before you go. Chaykin is one of the original curmudgeons of comics, although not quite as bad as Alex Toth or Harlan Ellison. Drop me a line, and I can point you toward some of his previous interviews. I think he did one for Comic Book Artist from Twomorrows within the past 2-3 years.